Call Waiting Caller ID

Modem compatibility and configuration issues.
frankpc
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Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by frankpc » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:50 am

I read a post from a couple of years ago - the question regarding display of call waiting CID was asked.

I agree that it seems a modem has not yet been developed and probably never will be that provides a Call Waiting CID message unless it is connected to a distant modem exchanging data.

I am wondering whether a v.92 pci modem could be spoofed into 'thinking' it is connected and therefore issue the Call Waiting CID message. I figure I could put a resistive load across the modem to give it a loop, put a capacitor in series on each side of the modem line to the telephone line to keep the modem from picking up the line, and issuing an AT command to place the modem off-hook. All messages (if any) from the modem would be of the Call Waiting CID type.

There would be no DC voltage to the modem's line, which might be a problem.... but maybe could be overcome.

Does Ascendis need the 'RING' message word to trigger its process? Or does it just need the incoming message. There would no longer be a 'RING' message.

What am I over looking? Seems too simple to work.

Thank you,

Frank

Bill Root
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Re: Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by Bill Root » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:34 am

Hi Frank,
frankpc wrote:I am wondering whether a v.92 pci modem could be spoofed into 'thinking' it is connected and therefore issue the Call Waiting CID message. I figure I could put a resistive load across the modem to give it a loop, put a capacitor in series on each side of the modem line to the telephone line to keep the modem from picking up the line, and issuing an AT command to place the modem off-hook. All messages (if any) from the modem would be of the Call Waiting CID type.

There would be no DC voltage to the modem's line, which might be a problem.... but maybe could be overcome.
I don't know enough to say whether this could work, what effect it might have on the phone line, or the CID signals. Of course, the voltage across a phone line can be lethal if the phone rings, and we can't condone this kind of modification. I strongly discourage readers from trying this unless they have the proper training or experience.
Does Ascendis need the 'RING' message word to trigger its process? Or does it just need the incoming message. There would no longer be a 'RING' message.
Ascendis Caller ID does not require the RING message. In some countries the CID comes before the first RING, so Ascendis Caller ID will report the call without it.

I agree that it seems a modem has not yet been developed and probably never will be that provides a Call Waiting CID message unless it is connected to a distant modem exchanging data.
The Zoom 3095 has a special snooping mode for call waiting CID messages. Recent beta versions of Ascendis Caller ID include an option for it in the modem device properties page. However, it seems to rarely work properly. This is from the Ascendis Caller ID help:
This setting is only enabled (and relevant) when not accessing through TAPI.

When enabled and supported by your modem, the program will report incoming calls while the phone line is in use by a phone that supports call waiting id.

Call modification commands like Hangup and PhoneSound will not work when a call waiting call has been received since the program doesn't know which call is active.

Note: Call waiting id support, as implemented in this program and the Zoom 3095, is called "Snooping CID" in the Zoom documentation. It only works when another phone device that supports call waiting id is connected in parallel with the modem. In our tests, it works if the phone in use ("off-hook") supports call waiting id, but not if a non-call waiting id phone is being used. It is apparently not sufficient for a call waiting id phone to be plugged into the phone line -- it must also be in use ("off-hook").
The little feedback we've received on this feature is mostly negative. While it sometimes works, it seems to generate too many false positives (which appear as garbage calls) to be useful. We've considered removing the feature altogether.

The call waiting CID support in the Zoom modem is included in the Conexant command set, so it's possible other modems implement it, but I haven't tested this. It's also possible other chipsets have similar features that we're not aware of.


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Re: Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by frankpc » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 am

Bill Root wrote:Note: Call waiting id support, as implemented in this program and the Zoom 3095, is called "Snooping CID" in the Zoom documentation. It only works when another phone device that supports call waiting id is connected in parallel with the modem. In our tests, it works if the phone in use ("off-hook") supports call waiting id, but not if a non-call waiting id phone is being used. It is apparently not sufficient for a call waiting id phone to be plugged into the phone line -- it must also be in use ("off-hook").
That is interesting Bill !! It sounds as though the Call waiting CID phone sends an acknowledgement back to the server telling it that it is indeed CID call waiting capable and to send the message. Then the Zoom 3095 is able to process the message returned. (??) If that is the case, why wouldn't the Zoom 3095 be designed to confirm that it is capable of handling the message.

Supporting information for this type of thing seems to be non-existent. I appreciate your explaining this. Very tempting to buy a Zoom 3095.

In preparation for the test I had explained, I ran the LTmoh.exe program that came with the modem. When connected with JUNO, I can call my home number from a cell phone and a CID message (name, number, date, time) is displayed. But that message is not detected by Ascendis. And is not displayed in the Windows Modem log. Do you have any idea how the CID message received during an actual modem data exchange condition is displayed by the MOH app but does not show up in the modem log? I figure the fact that it does not show up in the log is related to why it is not detected and displayed by Ascendis.

I also figure that if the message is not available outside of the MOH app, it won't be of any value.

Thank you for your input Bill!

Frank

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Re: Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by Bill Root » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:55 am

frankpc wrote:That is interesting Bill !! It sounds as though the Call waiting CID phone sends an acknowledgement back to the server telling it that it is indeed CID call waiting capable and to send the message. Then the Zoom 3095 is able to process the message returned. (??) If that is the case, why wouldn't the Zoom 3095 be designed to confirm that it is capable of handling the message.
I'm sorry -- I should have mentioned this in the first place, but I was talking about a case where the modem is NOT being used for the call -- in other words, the phone line is in use for a voice call. In that case, the call waiting CID signal is sent over the line as a burst of data, possibly preceded by a call waiting beep. Any device that is actively monitoring the phone line can decode the signal. I don't think any response is made from the receiving end, but I'm not certain.

In this case, I don't know why the Zoom modem requires another call waiting CID phone to be in use. It suggests more is going on than I'm aware of.

Supporting information for this type of thing seems to be non-existent. I appreciate your explaining this. Very tempting to buy a Zoom 3095.
You can get them on eBay for ~$20. There are different versions, but I don't know the difference(s) between them. It's possible some would work better for this -- I haven't done any version-specific testing.
In preparation for the test I had explained, I ran the LTmoh.exe program that came with the modem. When connected with JUNO, I can call my home number from a cell phone and a CID message (name, number, date, time) is displayed. But that message is not detected by Ascendis. And is not displayed in the Windows Modem log. Do you have any idea how the CID message received during an actual modem data exchange condition is displayed by the MOH app but does not show up in the modem log?
I think the MOH software includes a driver that monitors the data stream, removes the CID message from the data stream, and reports the data. If it didn't remove the data, the program communicating over the modem would get confused.
I figure the fact that it does not show up in the log is related to why it is not detected and displayed by Ascendis.
Exactly! Ascendis Caller ID never sees the message.
I also figure that if the message is not available outside of the MOH app, it won't be of any value.
Right again. It's conceivable that we could develop our own MOH software to hook into the data, but since dial-up for internet access is dwindling and the effort would be substantial, I don't think it's feasible.


To be clear, there appear to be two types of call waiting CID:
1) The common type is when the phone line is in use on a voice call and another call comes in. This is the type that the Zoom 3095 "Snooping CID" was designed to support, but its implementation appears flaky.
2) Another type is when a dial-up modem is connected to an internet service provider that happens to support the modem-on-hold feature. This requires specific internet service providers and custom software, probably running as a device driver. This is becoming obsolete faster than land-line phones and voice call waiting CID.

Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Re: Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by frankpc » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:53 am

Bill Root wrote:In this case, I don't know why the Zoom modem requires another call waiting CID phone to be in use. It suggests more is going on than I'm aware of.
Maybe the CID phone sends an acknowledgement to the distant modem that the Zoom modem should send, but doesn't. Or the CID phone sets up the understanding with the distant modem initially that it will accept Call Waiting CID if one comes in?

I ordered a 3095. But I didn't see a version number. Could that be a problem?
the MOH software includes a driver that monitors the data stream, removes the CID message from the data stream, and reports the data. If it didn't remove the data, the program communicating over the modem would get confused.
Makes sense. Darn! That issue could be a show stopper!
It's conceivable that we could develop our own MOH software to hook into the data, but since dial-up for internet access is dwindling and the effort would be substantial, I don't think it's feasible.
I understand! It would be interesting to understand more about the MOH app or the Netwaiting app.

Luckily, JUNO is free for 10 hours a month and it does support MOH. So it is handy for testing. But now... I'm not real sure what to test. If the extracted CID message data is inaccessible, could the ballgame be over?

Thank you Bill!
Frank

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Re: Call Waiting Caller ID

Post by Bill Root » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:00 pm

frankpc wrote:Maybe the CID phone sends an acknowledgement to the distant modem that the Zoom modem should send, but doesn't.
I think it's very unlikely that call waiting CID phones send a signal. But, I certainly don't know that.
Or the CID phone sets up the understanding with the distant modem initially that it will accept Call Waiting CID if one comes in?
In my previous response I meant to indicate that CID phones aren't involved for MOH functions. In voice calls, there's no modem on the other end.
I ordered a 3095. But I didn't see a version number. Could that be a problem?
I don't think it will be a problem. Since I've seen different series of 3095's indicated on eBay (sometimes indicated by "series" and sometimes by a letter in the bar code) I theorize there could be some functional difference. But I've purchased around 5 at different times, some new, some used, and they've all worked for Type I CID.
the MOH software includes a driver that monitors the data stream, removes the CID message from the data stream, and reports the data. If it didn't remove the data, the program communicating over the modem would get confused.
Makes sense. Darn! That issue could be a show stopper!
Yes... If you intend to use it to capture MOH CID then your idea might not work.
Luckily, JUNO is free for 10 hours a month and it does support MOH. So it is handy for testing. But now... I'm not real sure what to test. If the extracted CID message data is inaccessible, could the ballgame be over?
If you intend to capture MOH CID then your hardware hack is probably irrelevant since the modem is already communicating on the line. You could try using the Zoom 3095 with Ascendis Caller ID set up to capture call waiting CID, and use your current modem for dial-up. I don't know what would happen -- the Zoom 3095 might incorrectly interpret the other modem's data stream as CID signals. Or the MOH signals might have no relation to call waiting CID. I would think it's unlikely to work, but I don't know.

My father's phone company successfully lobbied the Michigan legislature to allow replacing plain-old-telephone lines with VOIP. In the near future he will lose dial-up capability. If you're in a similar situation it might not be worth your while to try to get MOH working beyond the built in software.


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Post by frankpc » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:07 pm

Bill Root wrote:I don't know why the Zoom modem requires another call waiting CID phone to be in use. It suggests more is going on than I'm aware of.
frankpc wrote:Maybe the CID phone sends an acknowledgement to the distant modem that the Zoom modem should send, but doesn't.
Bill Root wrote:I think it's very unlikely that call waiting CID phones send a signal. But, I certainly don't know that.
I was trying to understand why the CID phone must be off hook in order for the 3095 Snooping CID to display a CID message. I understood you to state that Snooping CID will display a Call Waiting CID message when the 3095 modem is attached but not in use and a CID phone is off hook. If my understanding of what you stated is correct, then it would seem the CID phone affects the process since Snooping CID does not work in parallel with a non-CID phone . I found next to nothing about Snooping CID online.
If you intend to capture MOH CID then your hardware hack is probably irrelevant since the modem is already communicating on the line.
I have broadband Internet. The only reason I bought the [now] two modems is for CID. I enjoy your program's ability to handle CID the way it does. But I would like for it to also display the CID Call Waiting message. Given no RING needs to be detected, and if the CID phone does not send out a signal, and if Snooping CID will display a CID message during a voice conversation, then we're close to set. The only shortcoming is that the CID while waiting message would not display from your software, but it would display on the screen. That offers no explanation for why a CID phone needs to be off hook though.

To clarify: I just wanted a v.92 modem to sit idle and display CID #1 via your software like it does, and for it to also display the CID #2 message via your software during a voice conversation. (I figured if a modem had MOH capability, it would also have CID #2 functionality). Now it seems with Snooping CID that desire is almost met.

Is my understanding correct?

Thank you for your patience and help with this Bill.

Frank

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Post by Bill Root » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:54 am

frankpc wrote:I was trying to understand why the CID phone must be off hook in order for the 3095 Snooping CID to display a CID message. I understood you to state that Snooping CID will display a Call Waiting CID message when the 3095 modem is attached but not in use and a CID phone is off hook.
To be clear, I meant that a call waiting CID phone must be in use in order for the Zoom 3095 to capture call waiting CID. With that minor addition, I agree.

Here is the command description from the AT commands manual for the modem:
-SCID - Snooping CID (Type II)
This command allows the modem to snoop a telephone line for Type II CID and relay
this information in order to report to DTE while on-hook. It is similar in functionality
with the standard Type II CID, which fetches CID information while off-hook. The main
difference is that the -SCID command requires equipment with Type II CID capability
connected in parallel with the modem, and hence the name Snooping CID. It will not
work without the CID equipment.
And, as I mentioned earlier, my and some other user's experiences with the Snooping CID on the Zoom 3095 is erratic.
If my understanding of what you stated is correct, then it would seem the CID phone affects the process since Snooping CID does not work in parallel with a non-CID phone.
Correct.

I found next to nothing about Snooping CID online.
I suspect it's a term invented by Conexant, the company that makes the chipset in the Zoom 3095.

I have broadband Internet. The only reason I bought the [now] two modems is for CID. I enjoy your program's ability to handle CID the way it does. But I would like for it to also display the CID Call Waiting message. Given no RING needs to be detected, and if the CID phone does not send out a signal, and if Snooping CID will display a CID message during a voice conversation, then we're close to set. The only shortcoming is that the CID while waiting message would not display from your software, but it would display on the screen. That offers no explanation for why a CID phone needs to be off hook though.
It sounds like you're saying that your non-Zoom 3095 modem will display the phone number of callers while the phone is in use but the modem is not in use for dial-up. Is that correct? If so, I would suspect the modem or modem software does something that the Zoom 3095 does not.
To clarify: I just wanted a v.92 modem to sit idle and display CID #1 via your software like it does, and for it to also display the CID #2 message via your software during a voice conversation.
I and many others would like the same!
(I figured if a modem had MOH capability, it would also have CID #2 functionality).
While that seems logical, I don't think it's a safe assumption.
Now it seems with Snooping CID that desire is almost met.
Maybe. As it we discussed, it requires the phone in use when the second call comes in to be a call waiting CID phone. And, as I've mentioned, several people have experienced erratic behavior of the Zoom 3095 with Snooping CID enabled.

I just ran a test and Ascendis Caller ID successfully reported call waiting CID when I was on a call waiting CID phone. When I was on a non-call-waiting-CID phone, Ascendis Caller ID reported nothing for the second call.

If I recall correctly, the real problem occurs during phone conservations. My theory is that the Zoom 3095 detects something that sounds close enough to call waiting CID data, so it incorrectly interprets it as such, spewing impossible phone numbers.
Is my understanding correct?
I think so!


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Post by frankpc » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:58 pm

Bill Root wrote:Here is the command description from the AT commands manual for the modem:-SCID - Snooping CID (Type II)
This command allows the modem to snoop a telephone line for Type II CID and relay
this information in order to report to DTE while on-hook. It is similar in functionality
with the standard Type II CID, which fetches CID information while off-hook. The main
difference is that the -SCID command requires equipment with Type II CID capability
connected in parallel with the modem, and hence the name Snooping CID. It will not
work without the CID equipment.
When my 3095 arrives, I look forward to trying this. Is the AT commands manual the only place you found a reference to Snooping CID ?
It sounds like you're saying that your non-Zoom 3095 modem will display the phone number of callers while the phone is in use but the modem is not in use for dial-up. Is that correct? If so, I would suspect the modem or modem software does something that the Zoom 3095 does not.
The Hiro H50006 pci modem (Agere chipset) works perfectly with Ascendis for CID #1 when the telephone is on-hook and modem is monitoring the phone line - but not connected. Also, when the LTmoh.exe app is running, the app displays Call waiting CID when the modem is exchanging data with a distant modem and the phone is onhook. At that point, the app allows the user to make a choice to take or drop the call.
I just ran a test and Ascendis Caller ID successfully reported call waiting CID when I was on a call waiting CID phone. When I was on a non-call-waiting-CID phone, Ascendis Caller ID reported nothing for the second call.

If I recall correctly, the real problem occurs during phone conservations. My theory is that the Zoom 3095 detects something that sounds close enough to call waiting CID data, so it incorrectly interprets it as such, spewing impossible phone numbers.
Interesting test! Perhaps there just isn't a sufficient return on the investment of trying to develop an algorithm that works consistently.

As I understand it, LTmoh.exe is the modem on hold software that works with the Agere chipset. And Netwaiting is the MOH software that works with the Conextant chip set. It would be nice if one or the other made that extracted data available to Ascendis. By the way, the Call Waiting CID messages have been clean and consistent. But since I don't use dial-up, there is no benefit.

Thank you Bill,

Frank

Bill Root
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Post by Bill Root » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:12 pm

Is the AT commands manual the only place you found a reference to Snooping CID ?
Yes -- I hadn't heard of it before, nor since.

I hope call waiting CID on the Zoom 3095 proves somewhat useful for you. In any case, I'll be interested in your feedback on it.

You'll need to use a beta version of Ascendis Caller ID to use call waiting CID. You can download it from the beta page:
http://www.ascendis.com/callerid/beta.php


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Post by frankpc » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:53 pm

This is disappointing:

If you go to this link:

http://www.multitech.com/manuals/s000468e.pdf

You will find this:

Removed -SCID "Snooping CID"
and +PCW "Call Waiting Enable" commands.

That happened 5 years ago. So evidently, Snooping CID didn't catch on real well.

I will let you know how it turns out Bill. And I did download and install the beta version of Ascendis a couple of days ago so I could see how you handled the setup.

Frank

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Post by Bill Root » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:05 am

frankpc wrote:If you go to this link:

http://www.multitech.com/manuals/s000468e.pdf

You will find this:

Removed -SCID "Snooping CID"
and +PCW "Call Waiting Enable" commands.
I saw that earlier. It's for a Multitech modem. It's possible the modem uses the Conexant chipset and copied the manual from Conexant but never included the hardware support for those features and finally corrected the manual.
So evidently, Snooping CID didn't catch on real well.
Hard to argue with that!


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

frankpc
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Post by frankpc » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:03 am

OH... so Multitech never had that option.

too bad!

frankpc
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Post by frankpc » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:11 am

Bill Root wrote:I hope call waiting CID on the Zoom 3095 proves somewhat useful for you. In any case, I'll be interested in your feedback on it.

You'll need to use a beta version of Ascendis Caller ID to use call waiting CID. You can download it from the beta page:
http://www.ascendis.com/callerid/beta.php
Hi Bill,

I've built a new Windows 7 - 64 bit PC with Ascendis Caller ID software beta version 3.0.0.37 and a Zoom 3095 modem.

Modem works well with the software - it displays and announces the calling party properly. But I haven't gotten the Call Waiting notification to work. Here is what I did:

Test #1

From my home Uniden cordless phone with Caller ID and Call Waiting ID, I dialed cell phone #1.

Cell phone #1 answered. I leave the connection off-hook

From Cell phone #2, I dialed my home number. On the Uniden phone, I see the Cell phone #2 number show up. The ring occurs several times.

No indication on the PC occurs. I disconnect all three phones.

Test #2

From Cell #1, I dialed my home number and answered with the Uniden cordless phone. The PC announced Cell #1 number. I left the connection off-hook

From Cell #2, I dialed my home number. The cordless phone displayed Cell #2 number. No indication on the PC. I hung up the three phones.

Notes:

The Zoom modem is the only one connected. Whenever Ascendis displays the calling number, the information also shows up in the Windows modem log. The Windows modem log does not display the call waiting ID info.

I tried these tests with 'Netwaiting' running and not running. Made no difference.

I don't suppose there is another initialization command I should be using to set the modem for 'call waiting' (?)

Is there another test I can make?

Thanks Bill,

Frank

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Post by Bill Root » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:01 am

Hi Frank,

I'm sorry to hear call waiting ID is not working.

Can you please open the Ascendis Caller ID's Modem Properties window (Options window, Devices page, Modems and TAPI sub-page, select modem, click Properties button) for the Zoom 3095 and verify the following?
1) Is "Use this device" checked? (I know this seems obvious from your reports...)
2) Is "Access through TAPI" NOT checked?
3) Is "Enable call waiting id" checked?

If the answer to all the above is YES, then I suggest trying the following, one at a time:
a) Try enabling "Prefer raw caller id" in the same properties window. If you had it on, try turning it off.
b) Try uninstalling Netwaiting. I don't have it installed on the computers I've successfully tested call waiting ID with, and being installed could interfere even if not running. (I'm not saying it does; I'm saying that depending on how it's implemented, it might.)
c) Try a different call waiting ID phone, if you have one.

Finally, if none of the above helps, please send a Technical Support Report after starting Ascendis Caller ID afresh and performing one of your tests. It could contain a hint as to the problem.


Finest regards,
Bill Root
Ascendis Software LLC

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